Today's guest is a former corporate litigator Adjunct professor and business owner that knows very intimately the struggle with impostor syndrome simultaneously projecting an air of confidence publicly while secretly dealing with an inferiority complex sound familiar fast forward to today as an experienced business coach. She guides entrepreneurs out of imposters. Yeah. She guides entrepreneurs out of imposter syndrome through a system. She calls the healthy business. Work this framework includes among other things Living the Good Life as a key component here to talk with us about overcoming imposter syndrome and the confidence Gap from climb coaching.com is Jen grow. So welcome Jen.
Jen: Hello. I'm so happy to be here Kimberly.
Kimberly: We're so happy to have you I'm glad you could make time in your schedule to chat with us about this. It's such a pervasive thing in our landscape these days think it affects. More and more people every day.
Jen: It really does it affect a lot of people and I have found that it affects some of the most successful people even more and I remember at one point. Someone said to me that's just a female thing. That's just women that feel that way and what I found was when I really started working with some male business owners that they feel exactly the same way they just don't necessarily talk about it as willingly as women, even though we do see that there are some men that are stepping forward and some successful people who have been stepping forward in recent years to admit that they felt this way and normalize it in some capacity, but you will find that many many people feel that way. In fact, there's a statistic that suggests that at least 70% percent of people will feel imposter syndrome at some point in their career and what I find amazing about that statistic is that's just the people who will admit it. So it has to be higher.
Kimberly: Wow. Wow, that's a pretty high percentage dialing it back a little bit Jen. You've done a lot of things attorney. Yes, sir. Multiple businesses. You are Mom a wife and The Avid athlete was that always your plan to have these varied experiences
Jen: Not even close to the plan. The plan was I went to school. I was very type a good girl. I got I've had good grades. I did all the right things checked off all of the right boxes and my plan was to go to school. I was going to get a practical degree. Going to get a finance degree. And then I was going to go to law school, even though I was very artistic. I was in my heart of hearts. I probably should have gone to art school. And but I was also at that time I was in a Robux instructor and I was very into fitness and I love that aspect but didn't feel that that was the path. I was supposed to take and so I went down a road that I was good at and that Made sense on paper and would make you know, just like many young people it would make the people who were behind me proud of me if I went down that road. And so that was the path. I took and the varied experiences. I never thought about it that way before but my guess is that the exact buried experiences came from trying to find peace for my soul and trying to find a way to live congruently with how I felt inside rather than just checking off those boxes.
Kimberly: Following the carrot is what I call that following the carrot.
Kimberly: Absolutely. Interesting. Well, how did imposter syndrome play along with those different roles? Did you experience that along the way? Is that a catalyst for change
Jen: the I experienced imposter syndrome? I would say as early as
Jen: despite having excellent grades and I spoke very well. So I had leadership positions early on in the various groups that I was in I remember at one point speaking to a large group probably. It's definitely over a thousand people but I was speaking to them at college for an event and I did that comfortably and I couldn't believe that I was chosen for that to give that talk and the entire time while I was delivering the talk. I felt that at some point someone to say. Oh, we made a mistake. She should not have been up here. We could have chosen 15 other people who were more qualified who could present And what have you and yet? That's not what happened. I do remember very uncomfortably. I received quite a bit of praise for it and I continue to step into those roles. Anyway, even though I felt the fear and I felt like I was being an imposter and maybe it was what you're describing that carrot. I knew it was something that I was supposed to do. So I kept doing it. Hmm. I will say what I didn't realize at the time was the continuous action and the continuous stepping into those. Is rolls and stepping into those uncomfortable places was helping me deal with the Imposter syndrome, but it did it never goes away. I continued to feel that when I was a lawyer the first time I set foot in a courtroom. I again I had that feeling I can't believe I'm here who put me here. Why did they send me in here? I felt like a little girl in you know in a dress up with a you know, a fake briefcase that didn't fit her that you know. Couldn't have been there and that I wasn't ready. But again, I did it. Anyway, I had I had no choice in my head and quite frankly that was my job. So I really did not have no choice but to go in and step into those types of roles and I will say, you know, we talked about some of the other roles as well. I didn't feel ready to I didn't feel ready to be a professor. But I did that. I didn't feel ready to become a business owner. But I did that I did that a number of times and I think that's not uncommon. Hm is that very often successful people care so much about doing well and being perceived well and they care about their reputation and so they want to make sure that they are. Experienced enough and that they have enough credentials behind them to justify being there, but they often don't feel like it's enough and so it's there is a bit of a self-worth issue in there. And that's tough to overcome even over time. Yeah, I think you're right. It
Kimberly: is it's that self-worth thing in it. I can speak from experience. I've had a little bit of that over so many years 20 30 years in the workforce and even in school and it seems like it's a cyclical thing almost every time some new experience is bestowed upon me or that I take on there's that moment where you just feel like somebody's Going to come along and take this away from me. Because I am not qualified. I'm not I don't have permission. I don't I don't think I should be here but this is what I feel like, you know I want to do I should do so it's a it's a strange space but it sounds like it's so common. Why do you think we struggle with this?
Jen: I think that there are a number of reasons and even some of the research plays it out. When I started there came a point when I started coaching people and it started I realized just how prevalent it was. I did. What I always do is I go in and I research and try to find what are the tools what are the experts saying that are better than me and that I've done more with this subject than I have and how can I help my clients through it and quite a bit of it has to do. With our mindset and even how we are raised and for many people there's a difference between the growth mindset and a fixed mindset. And so those who have more of a fixed mindset or were raised in that way or their environment suggested that a fixed mindset was the way to go can have a little bit more trouble with Imposter syndrome and so what a fixed mindset is is that you are born with all of the talent you are ever going to have and so you have no control over. It. Mmm are as smart as you're going to be your as articulate as you're going to be you are as fast as you're going to be if you're an athlete right Serena Williams is someone who is just an amazing athlete who talks about having imposter syndrome and struggles herself. And I remember when I heard that I was like wow, she looks confident every day, but it's it's this idea that you don't have control over it and you were given some set of of possibility or there's a there's an end point to what you can do and there's there's no control over that we're a growth mind cut set comes in a growth mindset is more like a learning mindset. It's this idea. You that you can Embrace failure and that failure isn't bad failure something. You should be doing it allows you to jump in there and try something out make the mistakes and know that the magic is there. The magic is in the failures and the mistakes because the lessons they're catapult you'll catapult you forward. So you'll hear the have you ever heard the phrase fail first, they'll often?
Kimberly: Yes. Absolutely. Absolutely.
Jen: And that's that's really an embodiment of the growth mindset. It's that if you can give yourself you use the word permission earlier, if you can give yourself permission to make mistakes and know that everyone else is making them as well. And that's part of the process to truly Reaching Your Potential beyond what you were born with or what your Environment LED you to believe was possible. That's when you can feel more comfortable and and push that impostor syndrome out of the way, so it doesn't hold you back because that's the danger with imposter syndrome. If you allow yourself to stay in that fixed place. You have no movement. You can't grow it makes perfect sense.
Kimberly: So you remain in that fix that fix place you don't move forward. Which is fine for some people right?
Jen: Yes, it can be it can be sure you can stay you can stay where you're at. But so I think that the people who reach a level where they're comfortable and that's where they want to stay. They then are not putting themselves into those uncomfortable new places where they feel the Imposter syndrome. So it's no longer an issue. Whereas just like you said, it's cyclical. You may try something new and then And feel those like I'd like an old bad habit that pops up and you're like, oh it's a trigger for me. I feel that impostor syndrome coming coming up. And so my first thing that I do with clients when they're having those feelings, they feel the lack of self-worth or they're not feeling confident or they're calling it imposter syndrome, whatever language they're using. The first key is to acknowledge that it's coming up for them and to acknowledge that that feeling to acknowledge that it's a common feeling as well and that it's something that they don't need to while it's common. It doesn't have to be true. It doesn't have to hold them back. So whatever the thought is, for example, I'm not good enough to write this article for Forbes Magazine. I don't know why I was selected. If I write this they're all kind of find me out.
Kimberly: Why did they call me?
Jen: Right why I do Any head which is and then I challenge them right away. Is that true? That's not true that you don't know anything. Mmm-hmm. And and so if they're still struggling through that I is their coach they know that they can always come to me as an objective Observer to remind them. That's ridiculous. That's not true. Now. Let's get to work and start acting in a way stepping up and acting in a way that shows that you are qualified and you are prepared to you know be the expert that you are in. Front of the Forbes Magazine
Kimberly: audience. Let me challenge you just let me show you right here. So here's like double double imposter Syndrome. Have you ever had the experience where you're feeling that then somebody comes along and reinforces that you know, you are skilled you are talented you can handle this and you question what they're telling you as is it genuine or are they just pumping me up? Because that's what they think. I need to hear you you do you hear what I'm saying? It's like this double second-guessing.
Jen: Absolutely. It's you know over thinkers Anonymous right? I have a I may or may not be the president of that organization. Yes, I have
Jen: I've never heard that called double imposter syndrome, but I love it. And I've never put that phrase on it, but the next step really because that does come up absolutely 100% comes up. I know I've been in that place where I especially being the lawyer who can argue anything. If you want to tell me I'm great. I will argue to the death if I needed to tell you why that's not true. What ultimately happens is and this is really related to confidence as well. It's you have to understand that the Taking action comes prior to having the confidence. So at some point so we'll use that Forbes example, you are committed to writing an article for Forbes you've committed to it. It would be very bad for your reputation to back out of doing the work that you've committed to doing. So you're going to take action you're going to do whatever you need to do to fill the Gap to write the best article that you You can in that moment regardless of how you feel. So if you are really stuck in that place where you still feel like an imposter, you're going to figure out what are the steps, what would an actual expert do if I'm not it what would an expert do they would research the answers to the questions that that are the topic of the article and they would and they would then write the article they would get additional help. They would have people who are trusted and skilled at editing the article. And and pointing out to them maybe where there are gaps in the article that need to be filled in and that could make it better and then you submit it and then once it's submitted and it's accepted for publication because quite frankly if it was rejected at that point you would know then maybe you were the Imposter. Honestly, that's so rarely happens and or if you because if you've done all of those steps Apps for example where you are having someone double-check your work are having someone you're having things checked your not just submitting something very sloppy that you know, sloppy work or your, you know, even when we talk about making the mistakes that you might make you won't make the mistakes that are so serious that you will embarrass yourself. On a huge on a huge level and the reason I say that is because majority of her majority majority of the people who suffer from imposter syndrome. They are the people who care so much that they are taking off all the boxes. They are triple checking and overthinking and they are so committed to success that they are not often the people who who let things go too. The Wayside now that doesn't mean that always happens, you know, we have plenty of people who do fail or do make some big mistakes. And then again the question is, all right, so we can look at that. Does that reinforce that you're an imposter or does that show that you're a successful person who made a mistake and can learn from that and grow from that and then take all of the skills from all of the successes that they had. and the lessons learned from the failures combine them so they can do even better and move that ball forward continue to progress not all goes back to that growth mindset a grow you grow by by looking at your past as a whole and applying that to your future and that includes the things that you are good at where you are skilled noticing where you need to improve on your weaknesses and and doing the kinds of activities or getting the education or the assistance to improve those weaknesses and moving forward and to not make the same mistakes you made in the
Kimberly: past. Yeah, just to you've said a lot of really great things just in the last few minutes. So just to distill that down. Yeah, if you're having imposter syndrome, which is just that feeling of you know, how did I get here? Did they make a mistake? You know, am I ready for this the likelihood if you're having that Is that you probably are good enough. You are skilled. You are successful,
Jen: right absolutely. Most of the people who are feeling that way are already successful people. So even when I said earlier on that that that's that of 70% it wasn't that will feel that way. They will feel that way at some time in their life. And so the even people who maybe we Wouldn't they wouldn't put them in at selves in that category of being highly successful High Achievers. They still have things that they feel successful at and yet, you know, maybe in their job they've been asked to Branch out of their comfort zone and to an area that they're not that comfortable with and that's when it might trigger that feeling of imposter syndrome. And so even when you look at it on, you know, a smaller level like that the question is what Ends when you're faced with that impostor syndrome. Do you sit in that fixed mindset and say I'm going to decline that that offer to do that job or that project because I don't feel comfortable doing it. And then you stay still you that's you're not going to grow you do stay your the fixed mindset ends up being a fixed reality as well or you going to grow through that and move forward. So
Kimberly: it's really important to designate. It's not a it's a choice. It's a choice. It's an opportunity to make a choice when you're feeling that way.
Kimberly: 100% you grow or you don't grow and that's entirely up to you. How empowering is that?
Jen: It's it's so empowering when you realize that you can take the personal responsibility for dealing with the Imposter syndrome and that Will determine your results hmm, it becomes quite a bit easier over time when it arises those feelings arise when you can recognize. Okay, I have the tools to move forward and if moving forward is what I want. I'm going to get past this this flip this feeling that I have today and you know, this this tends to be a little bit harder for those young people with very big dreams. Because they tend to have less less of a resume or lie or less experiences to look
back on but many of them are brave anyway, and that's the that's the
Kimberly: give me one second
Jen: many of them are brave anyway and decide to act they're willing to take those risks and push forward and accumulate the evidence that they are skilled and to that. Are in the right room and ready to be there and if they aren't there going to trust themselves to do what's necessary to step up to the
Kimberly: plate. It's all about building confidence, which is about experiences, which is what what takes time.
Absolutely. However, I do know that, you know, even in here in my 50s every once in a while something comes up that I maybe had an experience For and so that impostor syndrome creeps back in there's got to be a reason a way that it can serve you that's what I've found in. My my life is that when when things like this occur, there's a way to harness it to serve to serve a purpose. Would you say that that's just that confidence building or is there more
Jen: I know I would say that it is the confidence building. Its that it's it's I would say there's also a little bit more for I'm 47, and I also experienced it but I when it pops up for me, I experience it differently and I do see it as more of a reminder that Les if I put a little note take note that right now you feel uncomfortable. And I also know that where I am in life and in my business and who I have influence over I have the opportunity to be a great example for the younger women who are just starting out and to show them that it's still okay to make mistakes, you know, 30 years into a career and it's still okay to put yourself out there and continue to grow and isn't that a beautiful thing? I I can say That I will be just fine. If I experience impostor syndrome all the way up until my death bed because that means I'm still growing it means that I am still striving for more and looking to expand the possibility of what I can do and how I can influence and how I can serve and I we're talking about for some people they want a different life and that's okay and they want a life. That's a That's more steady and maybe in that fixed place and they get to a place where they feel very comfortable for me staying fixed is not comfortable. I am happiest when I'm continuously growing and living it living vibrantly, it's me that means growth and so part of that growth necessitates. That I'm going to have uncomfortable feelings and those might feel like imposter syndrome or not being worthy. But I'm more skilled and better at developing that confidence quickly to take action and move
Kimberly: ahead. Hmm. I heard a speech just a week or so ago by a woman named Linda Marie Lily Mueller. She spoke about experience versus experience. So experience the noun versus experience of herbs. So experience a noun is is doing the things like following that carrot Down College paths and promotion path and just check ticking all the boxes and then experiences as in the verb where you are pursuing that vibrant life where you're putting yourself you use the word brave earlier as in reference to young children our young people. Going through the Imposter syndrome for the first time in just diving forward and doing it. You can just tell I'm so excited by that because that is what we're here to talk about. That's for me when I work with folks and when I talk with folks getting out there and doing stuff and as you said earlier failing to move forward failing forward is a term that we use a lot of the time it's just it's that is Being that is life. That is experiencing. That's what we're here to do. And I yes, I love that you went there with that.
Jen: Yes, and I you know, it's funny. I didn't even hear the part of myself that referred to being brave just for people who are young. I consider myself Brave today. I I'll give you an example. I love the ocean. I have always loved the ocean. I live in New Jersey and the United States and we have a Beautiful you have beautiful beaches in New Jersey and I have been going to the New Jersey Shore since I was a little kid and I've always wanted to Surf but I've been afraid of sharks. I saw dogs. I saw jaws and then and I remember at one point even though I'm very active and I'm a masters athlete and I've owned a gym even though I've done all of those things there was something in my head I did that suggested that oh, I'm too old to start that at this point. Even if I wanted to get over the fear of sharks and that's very unlike me and I think that there was also a little bit of you know, who do I think I am to get on a surfboard at this point that's ridiculous. You know, they learn that the kids the little kids the 10 year olds learn how to do that and they're the ones who are good at it and then when covid hit it popped into my head, like what am I doing? There are a few things that I have not done that I've wanted to do in my heart and I'm not doing why do I care what anyone thinks about what I look like am I trying to compete in some surf competition? No, but I am denying myself the opportunity to experience what it would be like to be on a surfboard. And so just this August I got on a surfboard with my son. He it for his 13th birthday and we Someone to teach us how and it was fantastic. Did I fall over a ton? Absolutely, it was ridiculous, but it was so much fun. And there came a point where I was watching my son in a ride a wave in he was quite frankly much better than I was but there was a point where I was out there on the surfboard and I thought wow, this is the moment where I should be terrified of being eaten by a shark and I'm not I was just able to To I was Brave getting on the surfboard and then just sitting there. It's just a calm and a beautiful experience and we had just quite frankly had so much fun. And I am so glad that I did that because I know now really it doesn't matter what it is or how old I am if I want to do something even if I'm fearful of it, or I have a little bit of imposter syndrome coming in that maybe I'm not qualified to do so. So what so what I might fall down 20 times, but I will no longer deny myself that experience. I don't need to be I don't need to be at the top of the class for everything that I do. I don't need to be on a I don't need to be on a pedestal or winning an award or getting a medal. I want those experience. I want to live that full vibrant life and that requires for me growth and being brave and doing
Kimberly: things. Yeah. Yes. Yes. I think we give ourselves a lot more permission now to do that then back in the 70s 80s 90s where our generation grew up. Feeling like you had to do the right things just as you were talking about earlier going to school and going down that career path. I think that was a generational thing where we just we didn't want to be be looked at for doing something outlandish or you know, how how dare you stand out from the crowd and I love that. It seems like our society is embracing this new kind of breaking away from that in a big way.
Jen: Yes. I may be Society is embracing that growth mindset and really seeing the benefit to allowing yourself or giving yourself. Like you said that permission to do more and for it to not look like, you know, we're not born with an instruction manual and somehow that this is the path and this is you must take this path. Otherwise You didn't live a good successful life. And I think that we were sold that in some way that you needed you needed to be married and you needed to have a job with benefits by a certain age. You were discouraged from exploring and I think what you're doing with, you know with vibrant living is an example of letting people know there's another way there's a much more. All way that is a much better example to younger generations and maybe they're embracing that as well certainly looks like they are
Kimberly: embracing. I think they're teaching us. I think they I think that the millennial generation is teaching us in a big way and I'm all about it.
Jen: I can see
Kimberly: that. Yeah. I love I where they're coming from
Jen: I find when so when I was younger, this is a little bit off topic, but when I was younger My parents generation. I noticed that they stuck together like glue that you really you stayed within your age group and I think that our generation so just a step back. We've been more comfortable mingling with younger people and that's allowed us to grow by learning from them. Definitely and keep us younger and well tell me how that is. I don't know what that is. Let me try that out. Whatever what? It's that experience like I'd love to try that. And so but yeah I said that's off topic but it's not I think it's all about
Kimberly: growth. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. So there's a lot of folks that experience imposter syndrome. You wrote a little piece on it just this morning I think about some really well-known folks who are experiencing it so we're not alone.
Jen: Absolutely. So what if one of the most Young ones to me was listening to Maya Angelou. Mmm, and she has written. I believe it's at least at the time. She had the quote was 11 best sellers and she was during an issue during an interview. She said that she felt like at any given moment. She was going to write another book and she was going to be found out as a fraud and I thought wow she's amazing. How can she possibly Lee feel that way and apparently she did and Tom Hanks, he's one of the most to know accomplished actors of all time. He's any so well-liked people loved him and apparently they love him if they've met him in person. They live him on sets. They people look up to him and yet he has said that he feels like at any moment they're going to realize that he shouldn't be there. That it's going to be taken away from him. It's that language someone's going to take all of this away from me. Yeah, almost like you're The Wizard of Oz behind the curtain
Jen: and you know, we talked about myself being a lawyer and I really looked up to Supreme Court Justice Sonia Sotomayor and when you see her she is a commanding amazing presence that just it's like confidence oozes from her skin like you you could bottle it and sell it and she has talked about feeling imposter syndrome not all of the time. These are things it's a feeling that creeps up and hits you and then those who are successful deal with that and move forward and she has talked about that. There are so many more Seth Godin many, you know, he's known through to so many entrepreneurs and in personal development, with the writing and the Beautiful messages that he puts out in the world and he Is one of the people who admits to feeling to feeling imposter syndrome I said, Serena Williams has felt that way and so you'll see it's across all disciplines. It's men it's women. It's various age groups Lady Gaga has talked about feeling imposter syndrome. I just don't think that there's anyone that's immune from it. I think that maybe there are some unicorns out there who feel confident all the time. Excellent good for them for the rest of us mere mortals. I think it's just helpful to know that we're in good company. Yeah, and we just need to know. Okay, this is normal. So what are my tools? I can't let this hold me back. What are my tools and to Circle back to those? It's to challenge yourself. Is this true? It's probably not true. What can I do? What action can I take to get myself into confidence and moving forward? Who can I talk to who can set me straight and in my article today that I popped up in the post that I put up today? I said, they'll probably going to laugh at you most of the time when you tell someone I'm feeling like a fraud in this they're like, what are you talking about? Do you know who you are? Let me remind you. Let me throw some things that you that you've done and sometimes That's enough. Let's say oh, yeah, I did do that. I've managed to handle some really tough things before why wouldn't I be able to handle this I and it's just someone to give you that boost again to remind yourself that you can trust yourself. You can trust yourself to that you either already have it or you will figure it
Kimberly: out. Yes. Yeah. I love that. I love that as a takeaway just trust yourself and you will figure it out. And whatever happens, is going to be fine one way or the other right because you'll either learn or you'll move forward. It's all good.
Jen: You're Yeah, it's you're successful or you get a success and a high-five or you learn and you apply and then you get the success in the high-five either way, right? It's good stuff. I
Kimberly: want to let folks know how they can reach out to you Jen your website climb coaching.com.
Jen: Yes, they can reach out to me a climb coaching.com. That's a great. Place to reach me if you happen to be on Facebook and you are an entrepreneur love to welcome you to my Facebook group. It's a Fray group and we talked about things like this as well as offering some business trainings and bring some other experts on and it's called the healthy Unstoppable business. It's the hub for all of your business needs and it talks about for entrepreneurs. I think it's very important that you are healthy. Not only that you have a healthy bottom line at your business is healthy, but you as a person are both physically healthy and that you have a Healthy Growth mindset and we focus on that as a in a very holistic way. So I'd love to invite your your audience that happens to be entrepreneurs if they'd like to jump on they they can reach me there or if they just want to hear what I have to say. You can always reach me on Instagram at Jen Grasso dotco.
Kimberly: Awesome. I will put all of these in our show notes. All the links to these as well as your LinkedIn and looks like you're offering a complimentary Discovery call as well.
Jen: I am yes to anyone who would like some some clarity and a quick bit of coaching and to see what I'm about. I'd love to have you on a quick Discovery call and I have a calendly link and you can if you post that in the notes, I'd be happy to talk to any of your listeners.
Kimberly: Fantastic Jen. Thanks so much for being with us. Today and having this chat. You've actually put my mind at ease quite a bit as far as posture syndrome.
Jen: So amazing. I'm so happy anytime. I help anyone. I feel really good inside. That's my purpose. So that's
Kimberly: fantastic you is there any last thing that you want to share with us before? We let you go.
Jen: I the only thing that I would say is that I think that imposter syndrome through these tough times is creeping up quite a bit and so be compassionate with yourself. Fizz well, if you're feeling that way and you feel bad about feeling bad just give yourself a give yourself a little bit of compassion and remember what we talked about today that it's not uncommon and you have the tools to grow
Kimberly: forward fantastic Jane grow. So thank you so much.
Jen: You're welcome. Thank you for having
Kimberly: me. Be sure to check the show notes for links mentioned in this episode and join us in the Living the Good Life Facebook Community for previews of each episode the opportunity to pose questions directly to our guests bonus content and a community of people committed to living their best life and sharing the journey. Thanks for listening. Let us know what value you receive from this episode and what you'd like us to explore in the future in the comments and please take a moment to drop us a like or some Stars. I'm Kimberly Henrie. Let's get out there and live The Good Life.
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